Battle of the straw men.
Watching the paleo vs. vegan blog battles is entertaining, but frustrating. Each side likes to make well-reasoned arguments against positions the other side isn’t really taking. The proponents of veganism like to pretend that paleo-eaters only eat meat and cheese (in other words, paleo = zero-carb = extreme Atkins), while some paleo advocates lump vegans and fruitarians together, or imagine that vegans eat soy products every single meal.
For example, Dan Pardi of Dan’s Plan recently forwarded me this series of videos from Don Matesz of the Primal Wisdom blog. Don, a formerly enthusiastic proponent of the paleolithic diet, has switched to veganism and is now condemning the paleolithic way of eating. I’ve watched about half the series so far and I haven’t found it very convincing. Most of it seems to be an attack on low-carb, high saturated fat, low fiber diets, which is not necessarily the same as a paleo diet. Most variations of the paleo diet are medium-to-high fiber (from vegetables and fruits), medium carb (from fresh fruit and starchy tubers), and some “seafood only” variations of the paleo diet are extremely low in saturated fats.
The truth is, there is a great deal of consensus on many health topic among paleo-eaters and vegans. Both sides agree that:
- eating fruits and vegetables is health promoting
- animals should be treated humanely (with enough space, social contact with their own kind, fed food that doesn’t cause digestive distress, not abused, etc.)
- organic, sustainable agriculture is superior to conventional agriculture, both in terms of environmental impact and nutritional quality
- moderate intake of healthful fats (Omega-3 and monosaturated fats) is health-promoting
- trans-fats, refined sugar, refined vegetable oils, and refined flour are terrible for health
Of course there are points of disagreement. Does high saturated fat intake usually lead to heart disease? Does high gluten intake often lead to gut inflammation? I would say probably no, and probably yes, respectively, but I might be wrong. I try to keep up with the research, and base my own behavior on the most reputable, most widely replicated clinical studies. My own mind has changed in the past. In my late teens and early twenties I was an evangelical vegetarian. I was incredibly annoying. I’m done telling people how they should eat — I only want to share what I’ve learned so far in a take-it-or-leave-it format.
Your enemy is not the health enthusiast who disagrees with you. It’s a difficult fact to accept, but it’s true; different diets work well for different people. If someone finds a diet that works well for them, we should let them eat it in peace.
The real enemy is the Standard American Diet (fast-food, i.e. factory-farmed meat cooked in rancid vegetable oil, served with genetically modified, conventionally grown, pesticide-laced, uber-refined soy/corn/wheat concoctions, served with a vat of carbonated high fructose corn-syrup).
I’m not a fan of most vegans diets, but many vegan diets are closer to a healthful diet than a fast-food diet. A vegan diet based on gluten-free grains, minus the soy, plus some low-mercury fish (sardines, wild-caught salmon, etc.), would probably work out pretty well for most people. Yes, I know it’s not vegan if you add fish, but it’s just one dietary step away from excellent health (some extra protein, B12, and Omega-3 fatty acids). And some people seem able to thrive on a pure vegan diet (for example, Derek Tresize).
Vegans are not the enemy. Industrialized food production systems that want to feed you manufactured Franken-foods are the enemy.
Vegans should stop worrying about ancestral health enthusiasts as well. Millions of people, including myself, have restored their health by cutting most refined sugars and oils, grain products, and legumes out of their diets. Many paleo/ancestral health enthusiasts don’t eat any dairy products at all, and many more don’t eat red meat. Vegans, paleolethic diet advocates are not the enemy. McDonalds is the enemy.
You know who the biggest enemy is? Public school systems that feed our children tater tots, chicken fingers, chocolate milk, and soda for lunch. And don’t forget the plastic containers and bottles treated with bisphenol-A.
Health enthusiasts, let’s spend less time and energy arguing about the finer points of diet, and focus on taking action on the things we can agree on. More fresh vegetables and fruits, more healthful fats, more nutrient-dense high-quality food, less trans-fats and refined vegetable oil, less refined sugar, less white flour, less processed food, and fewer health-damaging chemical additives and preservatives. Especially for our kids!
Nicely Obama-esque!
Amen!!!
Thank you! Great suggestion that we keep our eye on the ball.
The real enemy is thinking about eating as some kind of dogmatic religion or ideology.
Sure, I agree with that to some extent. It would be ideal to live in a traditional food culture and not “think” about food at all, because all the food available would be healthful. But in industrialized nations, “normal” food has become corporate product, optimized for taste and not nutrition, so skepticism and scrutiny is necessary if you want to eat well.
My enemy is fat. I am down 22 lbs thanks to Paleo. I eat only shrimp and drink on Bombay Dry Gin. My big toe is very big and it is painful. What do I do now?
If your toe is painful from gout, the traditional culprits are alcohol and purines. More recently, fructose has been implicated:
http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/569656 (requires login)
and
http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7639/309.full
Dairy products may have a protective effect against gout. So can drinking more water.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Dairy-vegetable-proteins-may-protect-against-gout
So an anti-gout diet might be high in water, vegetables (even purine-rich vegetables don’t contribute to gout according to the study linked above), some low-fat dairy products, low fructose (juices, anything with corn syrup, dried fruits), and low purine. Foods highest in purine content include liver, kidney, heart, brains, sweetbreads, game meats, goose, partridge, anchovies, sardine, mackerel, herring, scallops, and mussels.
Produce high in purines should still be avoided until the gout subsides as it seems to be a factor for some. I know a few people that have to avoid specific foods because they contribute.
I would avoid all things thought to exacerbate gout to be on the safe side. Acerola cherry powder is a good supplement for those with gout.
Also, great article.
Didn’t Dan Pardi got himself a vegan girlfriend? They can be very convincing at close quarters…
No wait… that was the other guy…
Must have been. Last time I saw Dan’s wife she was chewing on a duck wing.
Thanks for the shout out! Based on the clinical and epidemiological research, as well as my own experience with myself an clients, I strongly believe a plant-based diet is optimal, but I love your call for perspective here. “The real enemy is the Standard American Diet” – absolutely!
Thanks for the comment Derek. Speaking of shout-outs, vegan bodybuilders got a huge plug in the nytimes today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/sports/vegans-muscle-their-way-into-bodybuilding.html
It may soon be possible to move beyond the search for a universal optimal diet, and start considering optimal diets based on individual genotypes. I’ve had great success with the paleo/primal diet (asthma reversal, fat loss, muscle gain, reduced allergies, improved mood, etc.), and digging into my 23andme profile has provided some clues for why I might be well suited for a mostly gluten-free diet that includes some animal products. For example, I carry a less efficient form of the gene that allows conversion from beta-carotene to vitamin A. I carry another gene variant that corresponds to higher fasting blood sugar (and I do well with intermittent fasting). Other genes show a higher probability that I’ll react badly to gluten (gut inflammation, etc.).
That said, I’m all in favor of eating non-poisonous plants. ;-)
“Vegans are not the enemy. Industrialized food production systems that want to feed you manufactured Franken-foods are the enemy.”
I’d disagree with you here, if scientists can produce chicken or fish in a lab that has the nutrients minus the possibility of harmful chemicals like mercury than I’m all for it.
I don’t like eating harming food as much of the next guy , but man made doesn’t necessarily mean bad.It’s also better than starving to death where it’s distributed in poorer country’s.
I’m fine with vegans as long as they don’t force it on there baby’s/children.I remember a news story where two vegan parent’s had there baby taken from them because it had malnutrition due to it’s diet. I think the simple fact is baby’s/children have different nutritional needs than adults.
Timmy — I agree that vegan diets aren’t ideal for growing children (with maybe a few exceptions for very carefully managed diets). I also agree that food science has contributed to human progress and has prevented starvation in many cases.
What I’m thinking about is big picture. Which is more harmful … a few parents who attempt to feed their kids a healthy diet but miss the mark (not enough protein, B12, etc.), or an entire industry that is causing an epidemic of Type 2 diabetes by pushing corn syrup, white flour, etc. as dietary staples?
No gripe with food scientists here … what I have a problem with is corporate profits being prioritized over health, poor food options in public schools, additives like MSG to increase sales, etc.
As for “vat-grown meat,” I’ll try to keep an open mind. I haven’t tried any yet!
Yeah, it sure is FUNNY watching Paleos and Vegans argue!! XD I have adhd, and I’m a paleo, while my friend is a vegetarian. His family hunts deer, and my mom wants me to just shut up and take my Ritalin and iron pills. :/ Kinda ironic, isn’t it? (My little bro is also a vegetarian. ) The fact is, going Paleo helps with my adhd, and my anemia. My vegetarian friend lost weight. I eat lots of fish and almonds. (When I can. ) We’re BOTH healthy! I think everyone who wants to eat both bread and meat should just meet themselves halth-way, and no one’s ever died from that. The fact is, saturated fat and high carbs just don’t go together. They’re OK by themselves, but not together… Americans have high ammounts of both. (Pfft… We should all just move to Japan…) P.S… In most blogs, I’ve seen Vegans and Paleos agreeing with each other. :)
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I really like the idea of diets determined by genotypes. Too many try to slop people into the same mold, yet each individual is unique and will react differently to certain stimuli.
Acids from animal meats and fish cause gout as well. I’ve been ratings vegan diet for 4 months I my results have been epic. I’m not a doctor but I got my facts from medical doctors and dietitians. Both parties agree that eliminating all meats, including fish increase health. As for saturated fats leading to ACS and additional cardiac conditions, it’s true guys. Saturated fats from oils and meats kill over time. Over consumption of protein strips your bones of calcium to balance the acidic PH which can lead to osteoporosis. If you can’t afford a physician who focuses on nutrition or a dietician, I recommend watching the documentary “Forks Over Knives”. By witnessing the facts from the registered professionals, I’m sure it will change a few open minds.
Here’s a detailed post on gout from Mark Sisson:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/gout-primal-paleo-diet/
Sry JD ,but didnt you see PEEPEE’s destruction of Mark Sisson and Anthony Culpo? Gout from fruit? please…Paleo diet leads to good results but without parasites i think paleo can get you into trouble later on. Plus the logic behind paleo that most people recite isnt very strong. Even paleo advocates admit this.
http://www.youtube.com/plantpositive
I agree with comment earlier about either sat fat or high carb not both.
Who is Peepee? This is the only link I could find:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/27/mister-peepee-on-mission-_n_1035951.html
My bad it’s seems the account was closed. If you search YouTube “primitive nutrition” there is an excellent video series explaining the paleo logic, it’s main proponents and their fallacies. It’s worth the time.
Well, I think I’ve finally worked up the perfect diet for myself – non-processed, properly balanced plant food, vegan style, plus a couple of sardines every day. I feel terrific, have lost weight, and as I really do the vegan thing right, I think I’ve got my bases covered except for vit. D supplements (NY winters). Sardines take care of the Omega3 and B12 problem handily. Woot! I love the veggies and fruits and legumes and seed and nuts and all, but I live for my beautiful greasy sweet little sardines every night. They keep things moving just right, too – often a bit of a problem for vegans.
“Vegans should stop worrying about ancestral health enthusiasts as well.”
It could happen that paleo enthusiasts stop worrying about vegans. However, it simply will NOT happen that vegans.. .writ large… stop worrying about paleo enthusiasts. Anyone who eats vegan primarily for ethical reasons will not like others eating meat, unless they absolutely need to do so in order to survive. Oftentimes, undoubtedly, vegans have both ethical and health reasons for their diet… which comes as *much* more specifically than veganism which includes a class of diets. On the other hand, so far as I can tell, there exist no ethical reasons for eating paleo.
Hi Doug — thanks for your comment. There are many ethical reasons to choose a paleo diet — especially one based on grass-fed/pastured animal products and intensive polyculture. If you’re interested in this topic, a book called The Vegetarian Myth is a good place to start. http://lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm
Personally I have written about this topic in this post:
http://jdmoyer.com/2010/01/27/eating-animals-getting-eaten-by-animals/
I just went to a heart dr who suggested a paleo diet. I had a dr who said vegetarian. What is the fine line between the two? Why are legumes bad for you? Is paleo + legumes ok?
Peggy
Hi Peggy. I think legumes are OK in moderate amounts for most people. In fact I’ve written an entire post on the subject:
http://jdmoyer.com/2011/02/15/to-bean-or-not-to-bean-that-is-the-question-legumes-lectins-and-human-health/
For heart health, co-enzyme Q10 is helpful for many people, as is vitamin K2 (found in fermented foods, aged cheeses, and poultry liver).
Good health to you!
Nice article. My husband and i get tons of ctiticizm after going vegan years ago, and nobody likes to hear about how much our health has improved! My anemia is gone and my bloodwork went from being a total mess to perfect. Our energy and stamina is off the charts. The sex is sooooo much better and more frequent. Weight loss and more LAN muscle. My husbands eyesight is improving. The list goes on and on.. We don’t ever tell people what to east but what really irritates me is when ignorant people say that a diet without animal products is ungealthe. This is false. This past five years has been the healthiest of our lives.wham
I suppose i should mention what i eat as a vegan in case anybody wants to improve their health. Lots of raw fruit, raw and cooked vegetables, lentils, beans , rice, whole grains, tempeh, tofu, nuts and seeds. I couldn’t recommend a healthier diet. I feel amazing.. No more headaches or heartburn. I think giving up dairy is the single best thing i ever did for my health
Moyer, what’s your opinion on the recent GenoType diet by Peter D’Adamo?
It doesn’t make sense to me to assign people diets by what “type” you are like “teacher,” “hunter,” and so forth. It would make more sense to look at your own specific genetic profile (on 23andMe.com or elsewhere) and then see what kind of clues like in your specific genotype. Do you produce lactase as an adult? If so you may be better able to tolerate dairy products. Do you have extra genes to produce amylase? If so you may be better suited for a higher starch diet. And so forth. But even then, paying attention to how your body responds to certain foods and diets is more important than any “type” you are.
Thanks for this post. As a 5 year vegan trying to incorporate some paleo principles (& re-evaluating my diet of late), I’m just finding it ridiculous. Both sides are so ridiculously closed to each other – it’s almost like they’re not listening, they’re just standing their ground and saying “no, no, no, that’s wrong” like spoiled brats. I’m thinking the truth, like you said – is a personal thing, and that it’s probably more “the middle path”. Paleos and vegans have a lot more in common than they realise, and labelling and segregating each other and sending smugness out into the world isn’t helping anyone.
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J.D,
This is a fantastic article. Thank you.